A Christian Rebuttal to Kaimatai, an Atheist

By S.J. Thomason

If someone asked me a year ago how I would be spending my free time today, I would have likely answered that I would be reading, riding a bike, studying, or writing academic papers. What I wouldn’t have answered is that I would be writing Christian rebuttals to atheists whom I have encountered on Twitter. In fact, if given a glimpse of my future in March of 2016, I would have been surprised to find myself writing atheist rebuttals. The Lord works in mysterious ways, especially considering that the source of my inspiration comes from atheists! The particular atheists who inspired me to write rebuttals no longer communicate with me, but during the time in which they did, I felt a strong desire to plant seeds within their minds, which I prayed God would grow. I still pray for them and others like them.

According to William Lane Craig (2010, p. 45), “The atheistic worldview is insufficient to maintain a happy and consistent life. Man cannot live consistently and happily as though life were ultimately without meaning, value, or purpose. If we try to live consistently with the atheistic worldview, we shall find ourselves profoundly unhappy.” In contrast, he notes (2010, p. 49) that “Biblical Christianity therefore provides two conditions necessary for a meaningful, valuable, and purposeful life: God and immortality. Because of these, we can live consistently and happily within the framework of our worldview.”

I came upon the timeline of an atheist who calls himself Kaimatai on Twitter where I found a link to a blog he had created entitled “Ten reasons why I’m not a Christian.” The intention of this blog is to write a rebuttal to his ten reasons.

Kaimatai writes:

  1. The absence of evidence where there should be evidence

Depending on your flavour of Christianity, this particular deity is supposed to have created the Universe, formed the earth, begun life, created humanity from just two individuals, intervened frequently in the affairs of a Near Eastern Tribe, and made a personal appearance for approximately 33 years. Many of these events should leave compelling evidence. Genetics should confirm we descended from just two individuals. Other civilizations should have noticed the extraordinary events described in the bible.  That evidence is just not present.

S.J. Thomason responds:

Let me begin by noting his reference to the flavor of Christianity. I draw attention to this statement because atheists often ask Christians to identify the “correct” Christian sect. I am of the opinion that so long as the Christian sect draws its knowledge from the Bible, embraces Jesus Christ’s divinity, and encourages people to live by the example of Jesus Christ, then the sect is correct.

People have varying needs in the ways they grow closer to God. Some prefer liturgical, ritualistic churches in which the congregation sings hymns and develops an appreciation of sacraments and traditions, such as the Lutheran and Catholic churches. Others might prefer contemporary sorts of churches in which the congregation sings contemporary Christian songs and listens to informative sermons on the Bible, such as the Baptist church. Other churches blend these options and offer various interpretations of the Bible based on variations of adherence to literal interpretations of the Bible. No matter the door, all ultimately lead to Jesus. “The door on which we have been knocking all our lives will be open at last” (Lewis, 1949).

To answer Kaimatai’s next issue, which speaks to the origins of the universe, earth, and life on earth, I draw from Hugh Ross and his book Improbable Planet.

“The Milky Way Galaxy, the Sun, the Moon, and the configuration of the solar system’s planets and asteroid belts reveal how Earth obtained its unique stockpile of elements and minerals that enable Earth today to sustain such an enormous biomass and biodiversity. The fossil record, isotope records, geological layers, sediment cores, ice cores, and biodeposit (biological decay products embedded in Earth’s crust) inventories provide biologists and ecologists with a chronicle of Earth’s life. Earth’s preserved record of past physical and biological events reveals an unanticipated synergy (p. 16-17).”

“Charles Darwin presumed that the development and transformation of life throughout Earth’s history was gradual, smooth, and continuous. However, in landmark articles published in 1972 and 1977, paleontologists Niles Eldredge and Stephen Jay Gould pointed out that the fossil record is typified by species remaining in extended stasis (little or no net evolutionary change) interrupted by quantum jumps where species suddenly disappear and then are followed quickly by sudden appearances of very different species…It is not only at the species level where quantum jumps are observed but also at the level of families, orders, and classes of organisms (p. 19).

“Primitive life, that is unicellular bacterial life, is but the simplest form of life on Earth. There are three other general divisions of purely physical life: (1) differentiated multicellular organisms (for example, fungi); (2) plants; and (3) animals. In addition to purely physical life, Earth today contains two kinds of life that possess distinctly nonphysical attributes. One of these kinds is a group of animals that possess a mind…that is capable of experiencing and expressing emotions, exercising intellectual analysis, and making decisions in response to that analysis and the animal’s emotional state. All mind-possessing animals share in common the attribute of parents providing sacrificial care for their offspring. Animals in this category include all mammals and birds and a few of the more advanced reptilian species such as the crocodile and the alligator” (p. 21).

“Another kind of life-form possessing nonphysical attributes is the species Homo sapiens sapiens. Human beings not only possess a mind, but they are also endowed with a spirit…(which) enables humans to engage in philosophy and theology and to address questions of ultimate meaning and purpose” (p. 21).

In other words, the earth today contains diverse and abundant species in multiple levels of advanced life, many of which appeared suddenly via quantum jumps. Such an explanation helps to explain the way the most advanced life forms possess consciousness (i.e., awareness) and spirituality, while less advanced life forms do not. Such an explanation further suggests that the first humans appeared suddenly.

Kaimatai’s next arguments suggest that the world is lacking evidence of Jesus. Such an assertion could not be further from the truth. Christianity, which 2.2 billion people currently practice globally, began with the humble work of the son of a carpenter, several fishermen, a tent maker, a tax collector, and others of little means. The very fact that such a group was able to convince millions to embrace Christianity and worship illegally and without any power or riches from 33 A.D. to 312 A.D. suggests something extraordinary is working behind the scenes.

I’ve paraphrased a story about Jesus by James Allan Francis (Turek, 2014) to demonstrate just how extraordinary the transformation of Christianity is.

He grew up in a village, the child of a peasant, and worked as a carpenter. He never had a family, owned a home, or went to college. He was only 33 when the tide of public opinion rode against Him. His friends ran away. One of them denied Him. He was turned over to His enemies and went through a mockery of a trial. He was nailed to a cross between two thieves.

“Twenty centuries have come and gone, and today He is the central figure of the human race. I am well within the mark when I say that all the enemies that ever marched, all the navies that ever sailed, all the parliaments that ever sat, all the kings that ever reigned – put together – have not affected the life of man on this earth as much as that one, solitary life.”

I anticipate atheists will say at this point that I’ve violated the ad populum fallacy, which is the appeal to the popularity of a claim as a reason for accepting it. I therefore return to the initial reasons behind the growth of Christianity to refute this argument. The first martyr, St. Stephen, heads up this discussion.

“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered Him – you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it” (Acts 7: 51-53).

“When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory and God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God’” (Acts 7:54-56).

“At this, they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul (Acts 7:57-58).

While on the road to Damascus breathing murderous threats towards Christians, Saul encountered Jesus. “Suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?’ ‘Who are you, Lord?’ Saul asked. ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting’” (Acts 9: 3-6).

Saul became Paul, who wrote at least six books of the New Testament and endured much persecution before being beheaded under the leadership of the Roman Emperor Nero. The book of Acts and 1 Timothy 4:6-8 suggests Paul knew that his death was imminent, though his death was not reported in the Bible.

Extrabiblically, in 1 Clement 5: 5-7 (c. A.D. 95-96), the writer notes that Paul suffered tremendously before being “set free from this world and transported up to a holy place, having become the greatest example of endurance” (McDowell, 2015). “Other early evidences for the martyrdom of Paul can be found in Ignatius (Letter to the Ephesians 12:2), Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9:1-2), Dionysius of Corinth (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 2.25.4), Irenaeus (Against Heresies 3.1.1), The Acts of Paul, and Tertullian” (Scorpiace 15:5-6) (McDowell, 2015).

Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 11:25-26: “Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers.”

Some atheists claim Paul never saw Jesus, yet he makes it quite clear that he did. “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, He appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all He appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born” (1 Corinthians15: 1-8).

The third example is Jesus’ brother James. While James didn’t provide us with evidence of his belief in Jesus’ divinity during Jesus’ ministry (Mark 3:20; John 7:5), he saw the risen Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:7) and accordingly, became a believer and key leader in the early church (Galatians 2:9; Acts 21:17-26).

In Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus states that James was stoned. “Two other Christian accounts also confirm the martyrdom of James, even if they differ over the details. Hegesippus provides a detailed account in Book 5 of his Memoirs (Hypomnemata), which have been preserved in Eusebius. And Clement of Alexandria (c. AD 150-215) also provides an account of the fate of James in the seventh book of his Hypotyposes, as recorded by Eusebius” (Ecclesiastical History 2.1.4b-5) (McDowell, 2015).

Based on these accounts, we know that among many Christian disciples (1) Stephen, Paul, and James sincerely believed in Jesus’ divinity; (2) they knowingly risked their lives to preach His Good Word; and (3) they died gory deaths due to their beliefs and practices.  

Kaimatai writes:

  1. The Soap Test

There are no instructions on using soap. Soap is a product that is easy to make.  It also has benefits for hygiene as well as reducing infections and limiting the spread of disease.  These effects on disease were not realised until the germ theory of disease was established.

Any deity that is supposed to be benevolent, all-knowing, and interceding to benefit a chosen tribe or people, would give instructions on its use. Instructions on its use however are weirdly absent.  This neglect would have increased needless suffering (through illness and disease) as well as premature deaths. With no technological barrier to making soap, there is no valid reason to withhold instructions on its use. Given the vast number of people whose lives would have been improved by providing instructions, it’s not a trivial issue.

S.J. Thomason responds:

While I agree that soap is important, I offer what organizations producing soap suggest is its history. According to the Chagrin Valley Soap and Salve Company, “Although no one really knows when soap was discovered, there are various legends surrounding its beginning. According to Roman legend, soap was named after Mount Sapo, an ancient site of animal sacrifices. After an animal sacrifice, rain would wash animal fat and ash that collected under the ceremonial altars, down to the banks of the Tiber River. Women washing clothes in the river noticed that if they washed their clothes in certain parts of the river after a heavy rain their clothes were much cleaner. Thus the emergence of the first soap – or at least the first use of soap. A soap-like material found in clay cylinders during the excavation of ancient Babylon is evidence that soap-making was known as early as 2800 B.C. Inscriptions on the cylinders say that fats were boiled with ashes, a soap-making method.”

According to Soap History, “An excavation of ancient Babylon revealed evidence that Babylonians were making soap around 2800 B.C. Babylonians were the first one to master the art of soap making. They made soap from fats boiled with ashes. Soap was used in cleaning wool and cotton used in textile manufacture and was used medicinally for at least 5000 years. The Ebers papyrus (Egypt, 1550 B.C.) reveals that the ancient Egyptians mixed animal and vegetable oils with alkaline salts to produce a soap-like substance. According the Pliny the Elder, the Phoenicians used goat’s tallow and wood ashes to create soap in 600 B.C. Early Romans made soaps in the first century A.D. from urine and soap was widely known in the Roman Empire.”

Biblical scholars have further referred to several passages to suggest that soap is indeed present in the Bible in the recognized form of its day.

Malachi 3:2: “But who can endure the day of His coming? Who can stand when He appears? For He will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.”

Jeremiah 2:22: “Although you wash yourself with soap and use an abundance of cleansing powder…”

Numbers 19:1-12 provides a recipe: “A man who is clean shall gather up ashes of the heifer and put them in a ceremonially clean place outside the camp. They are to be kept by the Israelite community for use in the water of cleansing; it is for purification from sin. The man who gathers up the ashes of the heifer must also wash his clothes, and he too will be unclean till evening.”

In summary, the people in Biblical times were using soap, though the soap varied in content from what we use today, just as medicines and vaccines available today were not available in Biblical times. Today’s soaps have come about just as God intended them to come about; no sooner and no later.

Kaimatai writes:

  1. The gospels are problematic

Not only are the gospels written well after the alleged events, they contradict each other in key details. The nativity of Luke and Mark describe entirely different events.  Unlike Julius Caesar there are no writings of Jesus. No contemporaneous historian, of which there were several in this era, noticed any of the fantastic things described in the gospels.

One feels an omniscient (all-knowing) deity would know this would reduce the confidence non-believers would have in the Jesus-mission. Even Julius Caesar left stuff he wrote. And an all-powerful deity might have ensured the records of the Jesus-mission weren’t so dependent on the contradictory, hearsay accounts we have.

S.J. Thomason responds:

Though scholars disagree on the precise dates in which the gospels were written due to their presuppositions, we have good evidence to suggest that the vast majority of the New Testament was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. This assertion is based on the fact that the destruction of Jerusalem, which was a major event on the same level as a great war, is not mentioned in the New Testament. In 70 A.D., the Roman army, led by the future Emperor Titus and ordered by Nero, destroyed Jerusalem and its second temple. Jesus had prophesied this destruction in Matthew 24: 1-8 and Luke 21: 5-6. The latter states: “Some of His disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, ‘As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.’”

Some scholars believe that the Gospel of Matthew was written around twelve years after Jesus’ crucifixion. One reason for this claim is due to recordings by early church leaders Irenaeus, Origen, and Eusebius. Eusebius (Bishop of Caesarea, father of church history) records that Matthew wrote his gospel while still in Israel (Liftin, 2007).

At least six of the New Testament books were written by Paul, who was beheaded by Nero in Rome at some point between 64 and 67 A.D. The potential timelines of these writings are as follows (GotQuestions.org, 2017). Note that all are within the lifetimes of people who lived in Jesus’ time.

Galatians (A.D. 47) 1 and 2; Thessalonians (A.D. 59—51) 1 and 2; Corinthians and Romans (A.D. 52—56); Ephesians, Philemon, Colossians, and Philippians (A.D. 60—62, during Paul’s first Roman imprisonment);  1 Timothy and Titus (A.D. 62); and 2 Timothy (A.D. 63—64, during Paul’s second Roman imprisonment).

Other evidence supporting the assertion of earlier dating is offered by J. Warner Wallace in his book Cold Case Christianity (2013): (1) Luke said nothing about the deaths of Paul and Peter. Paul was martyred around 64 A.D. while Peter was martyred shortly afterward; (2) Luke said nothing about the death of James, who was martyred in Jerusalem in 62 A.D.; (3) Luke’s gospel predates the book of Acts, as noted in its introduction; (4) Paul quoted Luke’s gospel in his letter to Timothy (1 Timothy 5:17-18); (5) Paul echoed the claims of the gospel writers (1 Corinthians 15; Galatians 1:15-19; Galatians 2:1); (6) Paul quoted Luke’s gospel in his letter to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 11:23-25; and (7) Luke quoted Mark and Matthew repeatedly (Luke 1:1-4); and Mark appears to be protecting key players, like Peter, by excluding embarrassing testimonies (Mark 14:47; Mark 14:3-9).

Next, I will turn to Kaimatai’s assertion that the gospels contradict one another. The gospels do not contradict one another on the most important points related to Jesus’ ministry, crucifixion, death, and resurrection. Minor points differ, which one would expect given variations in authorship. If the books precisely matched on all of the minor details, we would question authenticity. As it stands, the gospels work together as pieces in a puzzle, which we can put together.

  1. J. Warner Wallace examined the gospel accounts forensically, applying his years of work as a police detective to good use. He states, “The accounts puzzled together just the way one would expect from independent eyewitnesses. When one gospel eyewitness described an event and left out a detail that raised a question, this question was unintentionally answered by another gospel writer (who, by the way, often left out a detail that was provided by the first gospel writer).”

Some of the many examples Wallace provides are as follows:

Question: Matthew 8:16

Why did they wait until evening to bring those who needed healing?

Answer: Mark 1:21; Luke 4:31

Because it was the Sabbath.

Question: Matthew 14:1-2

Why did Herod tell his servants that he thought Jesus was John the Baptist, raised from the dead?

Answer: Luke 8:3; Acts 13:1

Many of Jesus’ followers were from Herod’s household.

Question: Luke 23:1-4

Why didn’t Pilate find a charge against Jesus even though Jesus claimed to be a King?

Answer: John 18:33-38

Jesus told Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world.

Kaimatai writes:

  1. Prayer doesn’t work

Enough children have died in faith-healing cases to show that prayer only succeeds in mundane cases with a high likelihood of occurring anyway. There is no evidence at the ‘population-level that Christians are healthier, live longer or recover from cancer more frequently.

S.J. Thomason responds:

The reason there may be little or no evidence at the population-level that Christians are healthier, live longer, or recover from cancer more frequently is not because God does not answer prayers. In contrast, God always answers prayers, but the answers may not be to improve health or prolong life. The answers always correspond to developing a relationship with us and advancing the fulfillment of our spiritual purposes or the spiritual purposes of our loved ones. If our spiritual purposes have been fulfilled, then our time on this planet is over and God calls us into heaven. Sometimes He calls the very best among us into heaven, which is always painful for those left behind, yet His purpose is to grow His relationship with those left behind and He places us in a variety of challenging circumstances to do just that.

As George MacDonald said and I’ll paraphrase: Imagine yourself as a house. God helps you to fix its drains, repair its cracks, and refurbish its appliances. You needed this help, so you’re not surprised.  But imagine your surprise when God starts knocking down walls, putting in new kitchens and baths, and adding bedrooms and room additions.  It hurts abominably and you wonder what on earth he’s up to.  You thought you were going to be a decent little cottage.  But he had plans for a palace, one in which He plans to live himself.  You see, he wants you to be perfect, just as he is perfect, and humble and kind, just as he is humble and kind.

Over the past five years, I have lost two good friends to cancer: one never smoked cigarettes, yet one day discovered she had stage four single cell lung cancer; a second discovered one day she had stage four brain cancer stemming from the melanoma she battled over a decade earlier. Both left behind a husband and an adopted child. In the first case, the husband passed a few months later, likely of a broken heart.

These two young mothers were extraordinarily kind and by anyone’s standards would be considered rather perfect people. No explanation of their deaths can offer their loved ones comfort, save for the explanation that they completed their lives’ missions and are now with God in heaven.

Before atheists jump to their feet here with accusations of the argument from ignorance fallacy, let us consider our purpose in life. Why are we here? What purpose do we serve? What does God want us to do?

According to Rick Warren in his book The Purpose-Driven Life, “God has a purpose behind every problem. He uses circumstances to develop our character. In fact, He depends more on circumstances to make us like Jesus than He depends on our reading the Bible…Jesus warned us that we would have problems in this world. No one is immune to pain or insulated from suffering, and no one gets to skate through life problem-free. Life is a series of problems…God uses problems to draw you closer to Himself (p. 193-194).

Kaimatai writes:

  1. How about those slaves then?

Right, Christianity has always been against slavery. Even in the first 1800 years when it wasn’t. And as the American Civil War showed, for many, not until the Federal Army reached Richmond.  The problem is that Jesus never said to abolish slavery. Neither did anyone else in the bible. Indeed, Exodus 21:20-21 said it was permissible to beat a slave so badly that they would die 2-3 days later.  The slave-owner wasn’t punished in this case as the slave was his property. A chattel. Not a human being, but property.

This is a very simple test. Moral beings don’t sanction this horrific behaviour. Christianity perpetuated slavery. It’s failed to reach a credible standard of morality that would corroborate a loving, moral supreme deity.

S.J. Thomason responds:

The first point to address the issue of slavery is to note that no true Christians of sound mind today are endorsing the type of slavery that was present in the United States in its early history. Slavery is something of the past in developed countries and involuntary servitude is not something any Christian of sound mind cares to resurrect.

The next point is that the type of slavery reported in Biblical times was often voluntary with civil owner slave relationships. Exceptions exist, which Kaimatai notes, and it is fortunate we are given such glimpses into the lives of people who lived during Biblical times so we can better understand the context of the Bible. Had reports of slavery been excluded from the Bible, one would question its historical authenticity.

Noting that Jesus did not instruct followers to abolish slavery ignores the fact that slavery was often voluntary and civil and a component of societal functioning in Biblical times. Instead of identifying areas in which Jesus did not instruct, we should consider His instructions to love our neighbors as ourselves, alongside the Beatitudes from Matthew 5:3-12:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Kaimatai writes:

  1. A peculiar dislike of poor black people

One appreciates that life on this planet is a little chaotic. That means natural disasters happen.  I’m not quite sure how a loving deity allows people to die in natural disasters, as the freewill argument seems moot in these cases.  The deaths and suffering are not caused by human agency.

Nonetheless, the real point is how unjust these disasters are. They impact the poorest and most vulnerable communities the most.  In 2010 a magnitude 7.0 earthquake hit Haiti.  The death toll was somewhere between 100,000-300,000 people. The same year a 7.1 earthquake hit Christchurch in NZ.  One person died of a heart-attack, that might have been caused by it.  The effects are not equal.

If we’re going to propose any kind of argument that humans have to put up with natural disasters, at the very least, these should not be so manifestly unjust.   Having a system that harms those communities least able to cope contradicts the alleged characters of the Christian deity.

S.J. Thomason responds:

As I live relatively close to Haiti, I am well aware of the many difficulties, natural or otherwise, that the country has faced in my lifetime. I recall a good number of earthquakes and hurricanes that have devastated the country. I also recall and have witnessed the way such disasters serve to unite the church community through mission trips and outreach. Taken in the context of fulfilling our spiritual purposes and developing a stronger relationship with God, such events can serve as catalysts for the betterment of society as they fuel empathy, compassion, love, and a passion for humanity.

Kaimatai writes:

  1. Baby I call Hell

Like everything to do with the afterlife, Hell is difficult to pin down. Is it a place of heinous torture as described by Dante and other evangelical pastors?  Or is it an eternal separation from this deity?  Given the wide-spread dogmatic belief that it is torture (and I’ve been threatened often enough with it), then it’s irreconcilable with a just and loving deity.

The infraction against this god is transitory in nature. All I have done is not believe it existed. That merits an infinite punishment- one that is unusually cruel, barbaric and inhumane.

Hell and a loving, just deity cannot both exist.

S.J. Thomason responds:

What we know of God is that (1) He is the source of our absolute moral standard; (2) He is the source of fairness and justice and (3) He is love (1 John 4:8). Accordingly, we know that the punishment will fit the crime. We also know that God wants all of His children to be with Him as demonstrated by the lengths to which He goes to celebrate the return of His prodigal sons and to bring back His lost sheep.

What we know of hell is that (1) hell is the separation from God’s love and (2) people have a choice not to go to hell. The people who voluntarily choose separation from God’s love are those who rely on themselves and their egos. Such people have more faith (trust) in their own beliefs than I have in mine.

Kaimatai writes:

  1. She blinded me with science

I appreciate that ancient people could not have had with their knowledge, the language of concepts to describe the world in scientific terms. Nonetheless, it seems odd that many ideas about the world are simply and blatantly wrong.  The microscopic world, the scale of the universe, that earth is not its centre, that life originated billions of years ago and then evolved are in conflict with many religious dogmas.  It’s not a good advertisement for these beliefs to be true.

S.J. Thomason responds:

Around 2,200 years before Copernicus proposed a heliocentric system in which the planets revolved around the sun (and hence, the earth was not flat), Isaiah (40:22) called attention to the “circle” of the earth. The Hebrew word he used to describe this circle was khug, which appears in Proverbs 8:27 and Job 22:14. The word translates to either a sphere or a vault, which implies dimensionality and not flatness.

Kaimatai writes:

  1. It’s a small world

It is inescapable that the events of the bible are restricted to a tiny part of the world. Most of Asia, Africa, the Americas and Oceania are excluded.  For a universal deity, this is suspiciously parochial.  It is according to the Abrahamic religion capable of communicating in all kinds of ways.  There are burning bushes, talking donkeys, angels etc.  But only a small tribe of pastoralists are selected for this direct communication.  In particular, a tribe that whose accomplishments were so minor, they had little ability to communicate their god to others.  While civilisations around them developed maths, astronomy, engineering, democracy and philosophy, ancient Judea developed, well, penis modification.

Even within that context, only a small part of the population is considered worthy of this message. This part being men, of course.  For a universal deity that considered all to be equal, this incredible favoritism does not make any sense.

S.J. Thomason responds:

The most famous Bible quote, John 3:16, states: “For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If God were only trying to appeal to a small segment of the world, He wouldn’t have made this declaration.

Furthermore, in Mark 16:15-16, Jesus says, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” “Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed His word by the signs that accompanied it.” Such passages call attention to the call from Jesus to grow Christianity in all parts of the world.

In his book, On Guard, William Lane Craig cites a study by David Barrett, which notes that in 100 A.D., the ratio of non-Christians to committed Christians in the world was 360 to 1. In 1000 A.D., the ratio was 220 to 1. In 1500 A.D., the ratio was 69 to 1. By its final count in 1989, the ratio was 7 to 1. In other words, for every 7 people on the planet, one is a Christian. Christianity is slowly but surely closing the gap.

Kaimatai writes:

  1. Free Fallin’

The problem with an all-knowing (omniscient) god is well known. It makes free-will a fantasy.  If a deity knows everything I’m going to do and say over my life-time, there’s nothing I can do to change that.  If Abe’s god knows I’m going to have sushi for lunch, then I cannot choose anything else.  That extrapolates to every other action I take, to very word I utter.  I cannot choose anything, choice is an always following a single course of action.  I can only say the lines I was given.  I can only play the role I was destined to play.

Life in this case, is meaningless. If I am going to hell, then, nothing I do over my life will change that.  I can only undertake the actions this deity already knows I’ll take.  All life is, is a brief moment where I can change nothing, followed by an eternity of hell.  There’s no point to this life at all.  This god may as well put those destined to hell, straight there.  Because nothing will change that destiny.

S.J. Thomason responds:

The sins of humanity are the result of God’s gift of free will, which underscores God’s generosity and love in giving such a gift as He knew the implications. He knew that by giving the gift of free will, He would also need to make a tremendous sacrifice to give the gift of eternal life, as free will in a world of temptations and challenges often leads to sin, which leads to death.

C.S. Lewis says, “If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having.”

Kaimatai asserts that if God is omniscient, we cannot have free will. This assertion is untrue as it conflates our free will to make choices with His control over our choices. Omniscience refers to “all knowing,” not “all controlling.” God does not control our actions, which is the essence of free will.

To understand God’s omniscience and our free will, we need to understand that God is unbounded by time. The reason God knows our future is not because He’s controlled our future, but because He’s witnessed our future. Just as a journalist can skip through the pages of the newspapers in which she has published, moving back and forth in time, God can move back and forth in time. So, the real time that constrains us does not constrain Him. He sees our decisions and actions and knows whether we’ll be in the Lamb’s Book of Life, not because He’s predetermined our destiny, but because He has watched us as we exercise our free will through the lens of unbounded time. Furthermore, God is always in the present, yet He is unbounded by linear time so He is concurrently in our future and our past. According to Revelation 1:8, the Lord God “who is and who was and who always will be.”

C.S. Lewis described this concept in his book Mere Christianity in this way: “Our life comes to us moment by moment. One moment disappears before the next comes along; and there is room for very little in each. That is what time is like. And of course you and I take it for granted that this time series – this arrangement of past, present, and future – is not simply the way life comes to us but the way things really exist…But many learned men do not agree with that. It was the theologians who first started the idea that some things are not in time at all: later the philosophers took it over: and now some scientists are doing the same. Almost certainly, God is not in time…If a million people are praying to Him at ten-thirty tonight, He need not listen to them all in that one little snippet which we call ten-thirty. Ten-thirty – and every other moment from the beginning of the world – is always present for Him.”

This is a difficult concept for some to grasp, but according to C.S. Lewis, it fits within Christianity. People may choose to ignore the concept, which is fine, yet it serves to understand the relationship between free will and omniscience.

Thank you for your time.

References:

Chagrin Valley Soap and Salve Company (2017): http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/idascorner/soap/the-origin-of-soap

Craig, W. (2010). On Guard. USA: David Cook.

Gotquestions.org (2017). https://www.gotquestions.org/how-many-books-did-Paul-write.html Lewis, C.S. (1949). The Weight of Glory.

Lewis, C.S. (1952). Mere Christianity.

Liftin, B. (2007) Getting to know church fathers: An evangelical introduction.

McDowell, S. (2015). http://seanmcdowell.org/blog/was-paul-beheaded-in-rome

Ross, H. (2016). Improbable Planet. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

Soap History (2017). http://www.soaphistory.net/

Turek, F. (2014). Stealing from God. USA: NavPress.

Warren, R. (2002). The Purpose-Driven Life. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan

Advertisements

Author: Christian Apologist

Please visit my new blog at ChristianApologistweb.Wordpress.com. The author lives with her two sons, chief security officer/pooch, and husband who would rather be living in a houseboat near his identical twin brother. She works as a college professor, which helps to pay the mortgage. Over the past few decades, she has attempted to reconcile the logic and rationality of nature with the unexplained force of love within. World religions address the latter, yet none so perfectly and comprehensively as Christianity. By diving into the academic, literary, and church communities, she's found many answers to the complicated questions of life. Life's short, sometimes ugly, and there are no guarantees. If she were to be hit by a bus tomorrow (which might very well happen), she'll rest in peace knowing that a permanent record of her discoveries of the way, the truth, and the life exists for her family, friends, and anyone else interested. Follow on Twitter @lead1225

19 thoughts on “A Christian Rebuttal to Kaimatai, an Atheist”

  1. The length of the post is difficult to get thru, digest and thoughtfully consider. You may want to pare it down a bit. How about several posts, a series, each focusing on one of his points.

    Like

  2. Do not ever let anyone tell you you are wasting your time. You are not. The goal isn’t to convince Atheists, for as experience and other data increasingly shows, they are not-persuadable and many are not honest actors, and some have financial or other motives, and they have been running a game for 10+ years to dominate mainstream media as well as the internet. They abuse people, they write crap like this without bothering to consult knowledgeable sources, and they treat anyone who questions them or their worldview like garbage.

    This is such a common experience, it’s time more people note it and say it–and more to the point, show OTHERS that you CAN face down these people and call them on their BS. And no, you don’t have to convince the Atheist of anything, and shouldn’t try. What you should do is convince everyone around you, even Christians, that it is TOTALLY OKAY TO CALL THEM ON THEIR BS and to call attention to their endless distortions, lies about history, and ridiculous bigotry.

    WHen people are no longer afraid to dismiss Atheists as shallow bullies–which is what most of them are, especially on the Internet but increasingly in real life–then we’ll see fewer children and simpleminded people falling for their garbage.

    Besides, people who talk like Atheists do and get into political power, it’s shown over and over, will often become at least as dangerous as ISIS if not more so. Until they acknowledge this, and pledge to do something to fight Atheist bigotry and bullying, we need to start recognizing that “bully” is exactly what most of them are on the Internet, and treat them the best way to treat a bully: make them regret picking a fight with you.

    These people have had a 10+ year ride of escaping any criticism of their movement ideology, and even like to keep claiming it’s not a movement ideology when it clearly is time to (correctly) turn the other cheek and let them know we will not be treated as lowly serfs by them. And if you want to read what the Bible says about such people… well, honestly, there just is no point in being nice to them until they at least prove they can act like civilized adults.

    Like

  3. By the way Dante’s view of Hell is actually a masterpiece of spiritual poetry and philosophy, and is anything but about simiplistic primitive punishment. Indeed in his trip through Hell, accompanied by guides, he starts out feeling terrible for the people in Hell and Purgatory (yes we believe in purgatory and we have good reason for it thank you) but by the near end of his journey he was completely out of patience for any of them… and also gets to the level where he realizes what his own great sin in life was–pride.

    He also meets the devil at the lowest level, and that too is infinitely more interesting than primitive depictions of Satan.

    All of this only going to show that Christian concepts of Salvation and Damnation are every bit as suble and interesting (if not moreso) than most Eastern mystical concepts in a lot of ways.

    In reality Christians have debated what Heaven and Hell are like forever, and the real answer now most widely acknowledged is that we can barely imagine it and nobody really knows. Some Popes, including Francis and Benedict and John Paul II, says we may reasonably hope all are saved in some fashion, but we don’t know, and those who willfully separate from God to the end will of course not be with God.

    As for whether or not you can be saved if you’re Christian or not–by the strictest definitions no, but, again, we have this pesky problem that there are multiple reasons to wonder whether it’s somehow possible to be saved through Jesus by different name or just instinctive knowledge, like the Evangelicals sometimes suggest. Origen thought very differently from Aquinas, and there are so many points in between. It’s so sad that we have to constantly be reduced to the simplistic formulations of the Fundamentalists.

    Like

  4. Hi SJ – many thanks for dropping by and I thought you’d like to see this my vicar has just sent me ( he spoke about one of these testimonies during Mothers’ Day service) > https://www.premierchristianity.com/Past-Issues/2017/April-2017/When-sceptics-convert-3-former-atheists-walking-the-path-of-CS-Lewis.
    Also, you may like to check my Scripture & Science hub which lists items on the conjunction between them and note I’m often in discussion on one of the blogs as they’re quite open-minded.

    Like

  5. I have finished my series of responses to your “rebuttal”. I’ve broken them down into individual parts for improved readability. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my objections.

    In general terms:
    1- it’s not a rebuttal if you ignore the objection
    2- bible verses aren’t rebuttals
    3- almost all arguments can be improved by *not* quoting C.S. Lewis.
    4- Hugh Ross is shockingly ignorant about biology

    Never mind the Punc Eq, where’s Adam and Eve?: SJ takes on genetics
    http://kaimatai.blogspot.co.nz/2017/03/the-sj-thomason-responses-genetics.html

    They call him Mr Fantastic: SJ builds a strawman
    http://kaimatai.blogspot.co.nz/2017/03/the-sj-thomason-response-fantastic-deeds.html

    Soapy Red Herrings: SJ takes on soap
    http://kaimatai.blogspot.co.nz/2017/03/the-sj-thomason-responses-soap.html

    Will the real JC stand up? SJ takes on the gospels
    http://kaimatai.blogspot.co.nz/2017/03/will-real-jc-stand-up-sj-takes-on.html

    Not feeling the power: SJ takes on prayer
    http://kaimatai.blogspot.co.nz/2017/03/not-feeling-power-sj-takes-on-prayer.html

    Whip it good, SJT takes on slavery
    http://kaimatai.blogspot.co.nz/2017/03/whip-it-good-sjt-takes-on-slavery.html

    God kills black people for love: SJT takes on disasters
    http://kaimatai.blogspot.co.nz/2017/04/god-kills-black-people-for-love-sjt.html

    Hell and the Heavens: SJT takes on Erastothenes
    http://kaimatai.blogspot.co.nz/2017/04/two-for-one-sjt-takes-on-hell-and.html

    Dream big little god: SJT takes on parochalism and freewill
    http://kaimatai.blogspot.co.nz/2017/04/dream-big-little-god-sjt-takes-on.html

    Like

    1. Thanks for taking the time. If you unblock me on Twitter, we can chat about your penchant for biking, photography and hummus. Oh, and we can also chat about the way Jesus has been shaking up your beliefs in atheism. 😜

      Like

  6. I was scrolling through the comments to find where to write a response and found that my friend Kaimatai has already done it, and rather well. I do note though that the piece is titled ‘A Christian…’ when really it’s several, just that one particular Christian has herded quotes from several other Christians (and Jews) into the one spot. This is not really a response from SJ Thompson, but rather a collection of responses from others, that SJ Thompson put together. There’s a reason I’ve not previously come across SJ Thompson an a known Christian apologist.

    Like

  7. In a comment on a previous post Stephanie said she was aware of logical fallacies and mentioned this article show that. This article shows she knows how to commit logical fallacies for sure, but doesn’t show she knows what logical fallacies really are or how to avoid them.

    Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s